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Unread postAuthor: Technician1002 » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:28 am

POLAND_SPUD wrote:
IMO opinion machining shouldn't be allowed for most projects since it's a community project so most members should be able to build them themselves...
I don't say there can't be a few projects just to show off and build real state of art masterpieces of spudding world...


If we dumb down the project so any junior high kid can build it without assistance we are pretty much limited to sprinkler valve, ball valve, and spray and pray cookie cutter designs.

With a community effort, the design can exceed the abilities of any single builder. Someone takes machining, someone takes automation electronics, someone takes material testing so it doesn't blow up, etc. As a community effort someone with a lathe unable to do the electronics can be part of a team that builds a fully automated fully automatic piece of engineering art.

Take for example the leader in the innovative category. Using the torch head fueling limits the rate the chamber vents and fuels. If a sub team was dedicated to just the fuel and vent cycle, and another team worked on automation of the ball reloading cycle (full auto) etc, we could as a community build a launcher that would beat the socks off the contest leaders.

The final product would be beyond any single builders abilities.

It's much like what I do for a living. I'm only a small part of an entire building full of folks that make something so complex that it is impossible for any single person to learn and understand all aspects of it's construction even if they study for a lifetime.

The guys that do the lithography are fantastic at what they do to get patterning well into the sub micron range. They don't care what happens in implant or etch. Other teams take care of making the process work at each level of design. The end result is a chip that can be purchased for less than $200 that has more man hours in the design than the trip to the moon. It's that complex. If each chip was handcrafted individually from the ground up by one person, they would have to live several hundred centuries to create one chip. It's not something you could buy for under $200.

The team designs the process and product and high volume manufacturing of millions of units pays for the development. I think aiming high and have it truly a community project is an excellent idea. Setting the goal to anyone can build it is short sighted. Full details would be published so anyone can study the design.

This is how Open Source Software works. It's community built and the source code is published for anyone to modify and use.
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Unread postAuthor: jrrdw » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:23 am

Hubb should head up this project, he thought of it...
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Unread postAuthor: CS » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:03 am

What about a supplementally fueled combustion/ hybrid that would not exhaust to atmosphere besides those gases that escape through the barrel? The point being rate of fire. Normally artillery munitions consist of a projectile, propellant, and primer. The later two not actually being the projectile begs for a simplification of operation.

Bottled O2 would not need to be used, but would allow scalability and ultimately a smaller chamber wherein the gas would take less time to mix. ROF being the motivator. Who knows on the O2 though my apprehension is similar to a cow in front of a cattle guard.

Any interest?
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Thu Sep 17, 2009 6:09 am

pimpmann22 wrote:The later two not actually being the projectile begs for a simplification of operation.


How about this idea?
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Unread postAuthor: psycix » Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:16 am

You very much misunderstand. The ONLY electronic control would be for the ignition. Absolutely everything else would be mechanical - fuelling, loading, venting... if it's not the ignition, it's not electronic. Clear?

If it's only for the ingition circuit, then you can call it a true automatic hybrid, and ignore my previous words.
I'd love to know how the mechanism works once you build it.


A gun thats cycled by microprocessor with solenoids and servos can be a great gun, but I think it is less challenging and fun then a normal mechanism that cycles all by itself.
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Unread postAuthor: Ragnarok » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:36 am

psycix wrote:If it's only for the ignition circuit, then you can call it a true automatic hybrid, and ignore my previous words.

W00t.

*serious face*

I'd love to know how the mechanism works once you build it.

Simple answer: Several linked spool valves.

The complex answer would involve me drawing up the actual cycling process neatly, and I don't do neat drawing...
...seriously, you've never seen what my art looks like before I've tidied it up in Photoshop.

A gun that's cycled by microprocessor with solenoids and servos can be a great gun, but I think it is less challenging and fun then a normal mechanism that cycles all by itself.

Generally, I'd agree. It's a way of doing it, but there's not really the challenge in there - and it's not a necessity.

Actually part of the reason I went mechanical for most of it was reliability and speed. Because everything is tripped pneumatically, there's absolutely no waiting around for electronics and electric valves to gird their loins and catch up.
It also means I'll get a cocking lever to actually prime the whole thing - and if that's not cool enough to be worth it, I don't know what is.

The electronic ignition simply gives full control over firing timing and patterns...

...actually, no - now I think, it does do one other thing. Thermal limitation. It'll have a temperature sensor that'll tell it if the thing is at risk of overheating and destroying itself. If the temperature gets high enough to be dangerous, it'll disable the ignition until it's safe again.
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Does that thing kinda look like a big cat to you?
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Unread postAuthor: Hubb » Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:39 pm

Alright people. Let's do dis!!

If no one has any disagreements, I'll be in charge of this. First thing we need are ideas. Going through this thread, there are several. I'm pulling them all together now, along with additional ideas that will be added (either through this thread or through PM, PM would be a lot easier for me). The deadline for ideas will be 26 hours from right now (time of this post) at which time I will create a poll for the ideas to be voted on.

Once the poll is complete (gonna give it, say, 3 days) I'll make the topic so that this can get underway.
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Unread postAuthor: Moonbogg » Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:50 pm

I say an aluminum, hand held piston hybrid. Semi auto, large bore (2" maybe) and TEN-X power. I'm talking about a real beast of unprecedented power and glory and woe to he who holdeth it at the time of its shouting.
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Unread postAuthor: Hubb » Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:56 pm

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Unread postAuthor: Brian the brain » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:00 pm

Wouldn't it be a hell of a lot more fun to build a " springer" type cannon, replace the spring by an airspring.And make it diesel..

Some system to reset the piston.A fuel meter, piston sucks in the air while resetting by way of checkvalve, or floating O-ring.
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Gun Freak wrote:
Oh my friggin god stop being so awesome, that thing is pure kick ass. Most innovative and creative pneumatic that the files have ever come by!

Can't ask for a better compliment!!
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Unread postAuthor: Moonbogg » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:35 pm



Not to knock his cannon, but that cannon hardly fits the description I gave. Does it have anything close to a 2" bore? You MUST be joking, however, sadly I think you probably aren't.
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Unread postAuthor: Technician1002 » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:57 pm

Just two cents worth on a possible goal list,

Full auto. I don't care if it is golf balls, tennis balls, gumballs, nails, bearings, whatever. This would need sub groups.. ignition maybe, automation, fueling, air supply, mechanical component reset, automation, etc.

Combustion or Pneumatic high power. Not 1X combustion optional, maybe a fall back if hybrid fails. If Pneumatic, sonic or supersonic possibly using an air ram or other design. Total machine gun destruction in slow motion would be a nice goal on high speed video. Maybe a video team to beg borrow source or loan a high speed camera.

Data. Someone to procure provide, build or otherwise provide a way to capture performance data. ROF, average power, peak power, repeatability, etc. this I would consider optional unless incorporated into the design. This may be included in or combined with high speed photography as a core project or auxiliary project.
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Unread postAuthor: Hotwired » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:13 pm

jmadden91 wrote:
jackssmirkingrevenge wrote:Wasn't Copperhead Prime the result of a similar competition on the UK spudgun forum?


From my understanding, that contest involved individuals submitting full designs, that were budgeted for under 100 pounds or something. Then the judges selecting what they believed to be the best cannon design, and the winner receiving the parts for said gun. A great competition IMO.


That is correct but since I had only found the forum a few weeks before the end of the competition what I also did was create a crash development thread:

http://www.uksgc.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/606-copperhead/

Mostly me talking to myself out loud but open to discussion. Plus a crapload of research, drawing behind the screens, I think a lot of the pictures are dead links now -_-


I'm not too sure about the concept -> realisation path being proposed.

Too small an item and too many people round it?

Whatever is proposed I know for a fact that one person could outdo the in and output of the entire site except in very specialised areas because all processes would be infinitely simpler.

Also brings up questions of who foots the bill, does the designing, decides on the design points to take forward, does the work and of course, keeps the launcher.



I think it would be more workable if this was a fast-track for individuals personal designs to be realised.

That way there is one person guaranteed to be pushing forward the build, one overruling vote on design direction and no arguments about whose it is.

The question would be how could support be arranged to assist with due respect to the individual and of course any volunteers assisting with the build.

I would suggest that instead of a council directing a build, each build would have its own leader, that being the build proposer them self whose responsibility it would be to see it through.


- Comrade Hotwired
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Last edited by Hotwired on Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postAuthor: Moonbogg » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:14 pm

I have a feeling that getting us all interested in a single type of cannon is going to be difficult. For instance, I have little interest in anything that shoots tiny stuff like marbles etc. I like cannons, not air rifles. I swear i'd buy a Theoben before I built an air rifle. I have the urge to go for something big and unquestionably unprecedented in terms of hand held raw power and performance.
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Unread postAuthor: POLAND_SPUD » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:15 pm

I say an aluminum, hand held piston hybrid. Semi auto, large bore (2" maybe) and TEN-X power. I'm talking about a real beast of unprecedented power and glory and woe to he who holdeth it at the time of its shouting.
so in other words you want to build a full auto version of cobra venom on steroids :wink:
sorry moon...
but you're right that it's not what fnord build


what we've got here could be easily predicted... we are all individuals... everyone (including me) has his own dream gun in mind when talking about this project...


send hubb your guidelines via PM and let members vote for them...
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