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Unread postAuthor: DYI » Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:13 am

ETGs are impractical after a certain point.


If you're trying to build weapons they are, yes. But we're not trying to build weapons here, are we?

Currently you can only really increase pressure or size in spudguns, it can't go that much further.


Which is more than can be done with "conventional" solid propellant guns, which have already essentially reached their limits, and have been studied to death over the last hundred years. In fact, I'd argue that for the kind of launchers we typically build, which are large and obnoxiously loud, CLGGs can reach higher performance than solid propellant guns, and with less illegal compounds laying around one's property.

What many of you don't seem to realize is that what is already permitted for discussion here is the future. The ideas we can currently discuss here - railguns, ETGs, *certain esoteric hydrogen producing reactions*, induction launchers, CLGGs - these hold greater potential than modern solid propellants for serious projectile launching. I'm not implying that we'll have EM handguns as ubiquitous weapons any time soon, but the big stuff is leaning progressively further away from conventional means and the fast stuff hasn't had much use for them since the forties.

Should we be able to discuss solid propellants here, in some limited and hidden fashion as SB15 suggested? Yes, and we already do. It's called the private messaging system. If PCGUY wanted to create a proper section for it, that'd be great, but the six or seven of us aren't exactly barred from communication with each other as it is.

Directions for the site? We need a change in attitude. We have people claiming that gas gun tech "can't go much further", when, to my knowledge, no one has even used helium as a buffer gas in a hybrid mix, or hydrogen or methane as a fuel. Can't go much further? Not unless that means we've finally managed to reach 5% of the performance we stand to achieve. We've barely even started. Laziness and ignorance is not equivalent to the exhaustion of our subject matter. Three years ago, Larda built a launcher with an energy density on the same order of magnitude as that of a firearm, using only air and propane as a propellant. How can anyone dismiss this as a toy technology, when even the most primitive propellants we use can achieve such performance? Solid explosives are wonderfully useful tools, but we need to develop some appreciation for the impressive technologies we already have, and are too lazy to put to use.
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Unread postAuthor: SpudBlaster15 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:40 pm

jackssmirkingrevenge wrote:Many spudguns on this forum are more powerful it terms of ft/lbs than many firearms, so it's not really a question of power, however in the modern terrorism obsessed world I don't think being associated with potential bomb-making material is going to be beneficial for this forum. People are being convicted for "possessing records likely to be useful in terrorism" - it borders on the ridiculous, but it's the way things are.


Moonbogg wrote:The only real issue I see, which already exists to some extend with spud guns, is someone getting instruction or ideas from here involving an HE or solid propellant project, then getting hurt or killed trying it out. The site might end up on the NEWS and then come under serious pressure.


POLAND_SPUD wrote:Guess what, this one is not :)


What you've all neglected to realize is that this would be a private, hidden section with less than a dozen members at any given point. The only individuals who would even be aware of its existence would be those who have been granted administrator permission to access the content. PCGUY and perhaps one or two select members would act as a filter, keeping the immature and unqualified out. There would be no media hysteria, and no accidental deaths or injuries resulting directly from this website.

The new version of the APC forum has been online since 2006, and the HE section has existed for even longer. Not once has it ever made the news or resulted in either physical or legal complications for any of the ~100 HE qualified members.

jrrdw wrote:Anybody who knows Roguesci.org knows it's no longer around. To open a explosive section no matter how well guarded by mods and members would deal Spudfiles the same fate as Roguesci.org was dealt. For those who know how well guarded Roguesci.org was, well you know what happen.


I've recently been in contact with the owner/administrator of RogueSci, and the site's latest sustained absence from the web had nothing to do with legal issues. I won't go into detail here, but his problems were personal in nature, and resulted in failure to pay the hosting bill.

RogueSci is now back up and running, FYI. The E&W forum is still being worked on, but the main site interface has been up since December.

POLAND_SPUD wrote:In case you haven't noticed... solid propellants are quite limited too


Certainly, but for the majority of amateurs, these limits will never be approached. The energy density and pressure generation capabilities of solid explosives are all but impossible to match on an amateur scale, and we'd be worried about launcher structural failures long before any velocity ceiling was reached.

DYI wrote:Directions for the site? We need a change in attitude. We have people claiming that gas gun tech "can't go much further", when, to my knowledge, no one has even used helium as a buffer gas in a hybrid mix, or hydrogen or methane as a fuel. Can't go much further? Not unless that means we've finally managed to reach 5% of the performance we stand to achieve. We've barely even started. Laziness and ignorance is not equivalent to the exhaustion of our subject matter. Three years ago, Larda built a launcher with an energy density on the same order of magnitude as that of a firearm, using only air and propane as a propellant. How can anyone dismiss this as a toy technology, when even the most primitive propellants we use can achieve such performance? Solid explosives are wonderfully useful tools, but we need to develop some appreciation for the impressive technologies we already have, and are too lazy to put to use.


This I definitely agree with. Air/fuel launch technology still has a very long way to go, though the motivation to pursue ambitious goals in said realm seems to be absent in all but a select few members. As much as I'd like to see a section dedicated to the discussion of high energy solid propellants, the forum also needs a wake-up call in terms of what's already achievable using permitted technologies.

Larda's hybrid is perhaps the single most groundbreaking achievement in traditional spudgunning, yet most view it as nothing more than a novelty. It's so much more than that; it's a stepping stone towards what's possible in this hobby. However, one look around here reveals that we're still dealing primarily with launch technologies that were considered groundbreaking no less than half this website's lifetime ago. If Spudfiles continues to stagnate in this way, and we continue to remain content with PVC pneumatics and low energy combustion launchers, there's no telling what this place will look like in a few years time.

How do we fix it? Well, that I don't know. Perhaps start with a private HE section and see what happens. :lol: :D
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Unread postAuthor: clemsonguy1125 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:53 pm

Whats wrong with low energy launchers? Very few people can actually build high end hybrids. This site is and always as been about helping people build and enjoy their cannons.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:54 pm

SpudBlaster15 wrote:What you've all neglected to realize is that this would be a private, hidden section with less than a dozen members at any given point. The only individuals who would even be aware of its existence would be those who have been granted administrator permission to access the content.


The first rule of HE club would therefore be not to talk about it ;) in my view if it's going to be private and invisible anyway, it should be discussed with PCGUY in private, and only those with an interest in using it should know of its existence.

There is also plenty of development in the fields of projectiles, valves, reloading mechanisms, suppressors, material application etc. - not only development, but also the investigation of phenomena which are observed but not necessarily well explained - which has yet to be done. If this forum is stagnated, it's more due to lack of imagination than anything else.
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Unread postAuthor: clemsonguy1125 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:00 pm

I can't see it staying hidden for long. Eventually someones going to slip and say something. And what about newer people you are not on this thread who have a great new cannon or idea. Basically it would be restricted to a few members. If its going to be restricted that much, it doesnt belong on this site IMO.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:08 pm

I feel the need to reiterate that I have nothing against people playing with HE as long as they are not harming anyone. Heck, I manage a chemical lab, nothing would please me more than being able to put some time in the weekends to make my own concoctions. However, I see a line in the sand between spudguns - however powerful - and the manufacture of explosives.

It's certainly not an association I would enjoy being publicly made with spudfiles. If it's possible for such a forum to be kept under wraps however, I would have no objections.
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Unread postAuthor: Fnord » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:14 pm

General Mechanical/Physics Forum

General Electronics/Tech Forum

General Finished Projects Showcase

There, everyone happy? I suppose the <strike>HE</strike> Chemistry forum could be a hidden sub forum in the physics stuff. The NSGRD would remain the misc off-topic section if needed.

This covers as broad of a range of topics as I can think of... everything from gaming rigs to hovercraft to tesla coils to pulsejets. Other stuff like songs, news, artwork and food could either go to theopia or the NSGRD.

edit: Oh and can we PLEASE remove the quicksearch bar! It's useless!

Heck, I manage a chemical lab, nothing would please me more than being able to put some time in the weekends to make my own concoctions.

Just as long as you don't post here under the influence of said concoctions. :D
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Last edited by Fnord on Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:22 pm

Fnord wrote:Other stuff like songs, news, artwork and food could either go to theopia or the NSGRD.


Why would there be the need for a forum, instead of just a link?

Just as long as you don't post here under the influence of said concoctions. :D


I had actually done a semi-serious feasibility study with a former colleague a few years ago, the initial financial outlay was too great and I haven't been diagnosed yet ;)

Fnord wrote:Oh and can we PLEASE remove the quicksearch bar! It's useless!


Hear hear! Not only is it useless, but it leads to "I tried to search but got 517,422 results" complaints from newbies.
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Unread postAuthor: SpudBlaster15 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:49 pm

clemsonguy1125 wrote:Whats wrong with low energy launchers?


As a starting point for people in the hobby, or a simple recreational device, absolutely nothing. However, a forum doesn't progress very far by repeatedly discussing the same topics for half a decade.

Very few people can actually build high end hybrids.


This is the misconception that needs to change. Refer to DYI's post on ignorance and laziness.

This site is and always as been about helping people build and enjoy their cannons.


Most of the 'help' current members demand can be found in numerous threads from years past. With no technological and design progress, all discussions eventually become recycled and repetitive. Is this what you want Spudfiles to become?

clemsonguy1125 wrote:I can't see it staying hidden for long. Eventually someones going to slip and say something.


Again, refer to the APC HE section. 5 years of using this system and no issues. Properly implemented, it works. There's no denying that.

And what about newer people you are not on this thread who have a great new cannon or idea. Basically it would be restricted to a few members.


...Then they could request access, just like they do on APC.

If its going to be restricted that much, it doesnt belong on this site IMO.


If you have no interest in such a section, I'm not sure why the matter would concern you as much as it seems to.

jackssmirkingrevenge wrote:The first rule of HE club would therefore be not to talk about it ;) in my view if it's going to be private and invisible anyway, it should be discussed with PCGUY in private, and only those with an interest in using it should know of its existence.


I highly doubt there would be any consideration given to adding new sections until the move to the newer version of phpBB is completed, so the idea is really in the infant stage at this point. If it ever reaches the point of serious consideration, I'm sure discussions will be held behind closed doors.

Fnord wrote:General Mechanical/Physics Forum

General Electronics/Tech Forum

General Finished Projects Showcase

There, everyone happy? I suppose the <strike>HE</strike> Chemistry forum could be a hidden sub forum in the physics stuff. The NSGRD would remain the misc off-topic section if needed.


I'd be quite happy with that, as it covers most topics effectively.
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Unread postAuthor: ramses » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:05 pm

I would support a hidden HE forum. Although I don't play myself, I would certainly like to follow discussion from a theoretical standpoint.


I also agree that the quick search bar should be removed. A split new topics page would be nice, as would a functioning way to view all posts in a date/time range. Oftentimes, logging in causes my new posts list to reset to zero.
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Unread postAuthor: POLAND_SPUD » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:07 pm

@SpudBlaster15
Ever heard of TOR ? google it.

There is no reason for you (or any one else) to link HE with spudfiles or PCGuy. What's the point of setting up a hidden section here ??


Set up your own hidden service and sent links via PM to the enlightened/chosen ones.
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Unread postAuthor: clemsonguy1125 » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:17 pm

I dont mind answering questions that have been asked before. The forum even with these low energy launchers has progressed. I have nothing wrong with old threads being recycled because this is how new ideas are incorporated into old ideas. I think the electronic forums would be a good idea though. Why does this section concern me, because I don't like some of the effects it could have on the forum.
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Unread postAuthor: Brian the brain » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:26 pm

Rc/electronics/robotics and automotive could be a nice addition.
Not much trouble with those.

Chemical however..
Look how far the humble spudgun has come..

I'd really hate for some " freedomfighter" to pick up some of the latest developments there.

It would be a very private club.
Long time members only.
It's not about the word getting out, it's about who gets the info.
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Unread postAuthor: jrrdw » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:33 pm

This thread has went from a somewhat suggestive idea's for Spudfiles Direction to a why or why not Spudfiles should have a HE or similar section that will probably never be allowed here do to it's nature.

If you have a different idea for new section/s or direction as topic title suggest then by all means post it.

What has all ready been posted has been posted, move on please.
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Unread postAuthor: al-xg » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:56 pm

Just create or use a separate forum for HE, if the wrong association was made it would spoil things for a majority of people. I agree with POLAND_SPUD there is no reason to link the two really.
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