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The Pneumatic Takeover

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Unread postAuthor: mobile chernobyl » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:17 am

SB - You knew when creating this thread you were going to get a crap load of feedback, good and bad... :wink:

I was going to reply earlier but after seeing D_Hall reply on a similar wavelength, I'm going to have to agree with his response - and it's one I've thought would be applicable for a while now.

In your initial post - you mention about 5-10 of us that want to push the "hybrid" realm to new horizons. I wish there were more, but that really doesn't seem like the case on spudfiles... Spudfiles was created for much more tame projects than even what it has seen I feel like. Our goal as "hybrider's" is quickly exceeding what most spudder's would even be comfortable with. We want near solid propellant, or greater than (in the hypervelocity cases) performance of conventional armament.

In full circle of my post - I feel either a new sub-forum or a completely new site devoted to our obsession with the extreme ceiling end of high performance fuel/oxidizer cannon's is the best alternative to trying to convince ourselves that we can get more "pneubs" to become interested in ridiculously powerful cannons...

It's one thing to "shoot a few hundred yards" but it's a completely new class of "spud guns" to shoot through a few solid targets and continue to "shoot a few hundred yards"... lol :wink:

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Unread postAuthor: Alster370 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:07 am

Perhaps what is needed is a Hybrid building guide in the how to section of the forum. It could be put together by those with a good knowledge of hybrids, and this would help those who have built several pneumatics move into the more expensive, and experimental world of hybrids.

I for one would love to build a hybrid, but spending all my weeks wages for several months on a design that may or may not be adequate for my needs doesn't exactly get me motivated to try. :?

Having the guide would mean that they could follow a particular design ( If one was included in the guide) or tailor there own design around the information contained within the guide. Surely this would encourage more people to build hybrids, if the information is all in one place?
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Unread postAuthor: wyz2285 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:57 am

For myself, I know what you mean, newbie posts sometimes are annoying :wink:
But, everything has a start, I was there too, I just think a lot and ask less. I know I´m one of these people you don´t like, but you can´t do better if you are in my position. Most portuguese people are lazy, the low is ridicules, I´m not even sure if my licence can cover some of my airguns, I´m not stupid enough to build a hybrid big bore cannon and shot it in my back yard :roll: my parents are against this "unusual" hobby from the beginning, there is no way convincing them to take me out of some shots.
Besides that, I´m also limited by materials. The only ignition I can find is BBQ ignitors, the spark they produce are miserable. There isn´t any valves unless ball valves :evil: , propane tanks that I can´t find a cheap regulator for it(the only "thing" to use that tank is a special adaptor plus on/off valve, 120 euros :shock: )... They all are factors that keep me away from hybrids/combustions.
And finally, bb guns I can use for game play, what I´m going to do with a big bore hybrid ?
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CpTn_lAw wrote::D "yay, me wanna make big multishot pnoob with 1000 psi foot pump compressor using diamond as main material. Do you think wet bread make good sealant? " :D
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Unread postAuthor: Zeus » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:00 am

I'll be flamed for this, but anyway.

The lack of interest in hybrids is mainly because there are more younger members whos' parents cannot bear the thought of little Johnny playing outside.

And in my ageist opinion, the more younger members, the lower quality of the forums' content. At least people aren't posting the same mini combustions constantly.

I stay here for the aforementioned members who have an interest in furthering performance of hybrids, while hammer valves and such are interesting, I've got a few other forums if I want to see a high rate of fire with reasonable performance.

A hybrid is easier to build than a piston valve pneumatic, it's a spark gap, a filling valve, and a union. Then buy a syringe, work out the extraordinarily simple fueling math, and enjoy,

Anyone who says they can't build a hybrid and has some measure of independance has no excuse.

Good posts everyone agreeing with SB.
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/sarcasm, /hyperbole
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Unread postAuthor: wyz2285 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:17 am

A hybrid is easier to build than a piston valve pneumatic, it's a spark gap, a filling valve, and a union. Then buy a syringe, work out the extraordinarily simple fueling math, and enjoy,

Not true! spark gap isn´t a reliable ignition, you never know if there are any spark inside the chamber :roll:
And as you said, a burst disc hybrid does sounds simple, but change the broken disc every time? Then I have to fuel and charge it, just like a penumatic. A spark gap is just no good after 5x, when I can simply charge it with air to 50 bar and shot it with same power.
And this topic is basically saying that we shouldn´t like realistic looking multishot pneumatics :roll:
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CpTn_lAw wrote::D "yay, me wanna make big multishot pnoob with 1000 psi foot pump compressor using diamond as main material. Do you think wet bread make good sealant? " :D
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Unread postAuthor: Zeus » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:32 am

wyz2285 wrote:Not true! spark gap isn´t a reliable ignition, you never know if there are any spark inside the chamber :roll:
And as you said, a burst disc hybrid does sounds simple, but change the broken disc every time? Then I have to fuel and charge it, just like a penumatic. A spark gap is just no good after 5x, when I can simply charge it with air to 50 bar and shot it with same power.
And this topic is basically saying that we shouldn´t like realistic looking multishot pneumatics :roll:


I disagree, JSR used a piezo up to 17X if I recall, and I never said anything about rate of fire.

If you want to charge a large chamber to 50 bar and not exceed the speed of sound, that's your call. Hybrids are the only option for exceeding SOS without solid propellants or an ETG.

And it isn't saying that you shouldn't like them, it's asking why everybody has no interest in power, just rate of fire.

And don't anybody dare say that a pneumatic can match a hybrid assuming the same bore diameter and projectile.
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/sarcasm, /hyperbole
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Unread postAuthor: wyz2285 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:02 am

What ever man, I'm not going to continue this conversation, and topics likes this is even more useless than a pneumatic post. I like multishots pneumatics more than hybrids and I'm not as good as JSR at using a piezo, hope you don't have a problem with that.
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Unread postAuthor: pneumaticcannons » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:04 am

it's asking why everybody has no interest in power, just rate of fire.

I completely agree. One giant "BOOM" can be just as, and sometimes more satisfying than many little "pings"

And in my ageist opinion, the more younger members, the lower quality of the forums' content. At least people aren't posting the same mini combustions constantly.

I think the kids who join just to make a single launcher in order to show off to their friends quickly get phased out. However, the more intellectual ones will stick around and actually try to contribute to the hobby. Even though we are limited by our budget, we can usually find ways around that if it means making our cannons slightly ghetto (as stated by MC) We can be just as and sometimes even more help full as adult members
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Unread postAuthor: al-xg » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:24 am

Edit: two posts too slow...

And don't anybody dare say that a pneumatic can match a hybrid assuming the same bore diameter and projectile.


With no pressure, fuel or mix specified that doesn't make much sense.

And it isn't saying that you shouldn't like them, it's asking why everybody has no interest in power, just rate of fire.


Nothing against Zeus by the way, just easier to respond to more recent points. Thought it was worth mentioning this in this climate of frustration and blame. :roll:

This probably has more to do with what people want to do with their spudguns. Hitting targets at range, going purely for range, destructive impact, aesthetics, airsoft/paintball use, cool factor, specs on paper, frustration of not being able to own a firearm, autonomy, love of mechanical design, simulation of thermofluids, ...etc

But then more power isn't always possible(or absolutely necessary to achieve the design intent) depending on location/surroundings, and in that case there are other aspects to appreciate in building spudguns.

I'm surprised so many older members are getting wound up in this pneumatic vs pneumatic+combustion. No one is forcing anyone to do one or the other, and as far as impressionable young new members being inspired to try out one or the other, surely it is in their interest for them not to try building highly energetic complex canons and injure themselves.

And what about atmospheric combustion canons, those aren't as powerful so it's ok that no one builds them anymore ?
People that have the maturity skill and interest in engineering build great designs regardless of the category, look at the tactical-interballistic-tennis-ball-system or the Combustion paintball gattling gun are those not fantastic designs ?
I just think people should stop trying to blame someone and just get on with enjoying the hobby.


And also I can't see how having a separate forum would help in any way. Are people just put off by not seeing their own topics/interests in the recent post list ?

I can't wait to have the opportunity to work on my projects properly again, be they hybrids, pneumatics, combustions or just test rigs.
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Last edited by al-xg on Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postAuthor: jrrdw » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:32 am

al-xg wrote:But then more power isn't always possible depending on location/surroundings, and in that case there are other aspects to appreciate in building spudguns.

I'm surprised so many older members are getting wound up in this pneumatic vs pneumatic+combustion. No one is forcing anyone to do one or the other, and as far as impressionable young new members being inspired to try out one or the other, surely it is in their interest for them not to try building highly energetic complex canons and injure themselves.

And what about atmospheric combustion canons, those aren't as powerful so it's ok that no one builds them anymore ?
People that have the maturity skill and interest in engineering build great designs regardless of the category, look at the tactical-interballistic-tennis-ball-system or the Combustion paintball gattling gun are those not fantastic designs ?
I just people should stop trying to blame someone and just get on with enjoying the hobby.


Well said!
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Unread postAuthor: mark.f » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:42 am

I agree with SpudBlaster in that we do need at least a handful more contributing members posting combustions/hybrids. If you look halfway up this page, you will see some misinformation about hybrid fueling/ignition... change scenarios to a pneumatic discussion... do you think the same level of trivial misinformation would be present concerning something like a QEV? A sign that hybrids and becoming a little more fringe than they used to be.

I do agree that you should build what you like and what you can afford/accommodate. Example: I had a few hundred bucks to buy a pistol. Rather than buy something like a .40 S&W or .357 Magnum that I would have to feed expensive ammo and take to a shooting range to enjoy, I picked up a rimfire .22 LR pistol instead. Does that make me a freedom-hating-unamerican-pussy-left-wing-ninny-guy?
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Unread postAuthor: POLAND_SPUD » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:30 am

I'm surprised so many older members are getting wound up in this pneumatic vs pneumatic+combustion. No one is forcing anyone to do one or the other, and as far as impressionable young new members being inspired to try out one or the other
again well said

You can't force ppl to build hybrids, but you can show them how to build a hybrid - not necessarily one you want but one they would like to have. You can only inspire them but you can't force them
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Unread postAuthor: sharpshooter11000 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:46 am

I think, as Mark.f said, there should be more people wanting to build hybrids.
Although it does take a lot more time and money to build one, I would love to build one but I don't have the money (seeing as I'm only 14) to buy a high pressure chamber, etc.
Also, my parents are touchy about my pretty low pressure pneumatics, how do you think they would feel about me breaking the speed of sound with a metal projectile? The law over here forbids anything too powerful, including air rifles without a licence as well.
So yeah, in short, I'm screwed about building a hybrid :(
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Unread postAuthor: Gun Freak » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:53 am

I will conclude my contribution to this stupid discussion by saying this:

PNEUMATICS FTW!!!
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Unread postAuthor: evanmcorleytv » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:01 am



When I say small bore, I think of LESS than a half inch. which means that you've built ONE. Also, small bore pneumatics are fun!! They are usually pretty easy to build, and supply a LOT of mostly harmless fun. While I'm all for hybrids, I can do anything more than my mini hybrid because of cost.. The main reason that I make small bore pneumatics is to play airsoft with them.. or to um.. cause.. damage to.. not humans.. that people eat.. YES. That was a good description.. haha
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