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The Pneumatic Takeover

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Unread postAuthor: mobile chernobyl » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:23 pm

Moonbogg wrote:I am disgusted by anything small bore, especially pneumatics.

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BBMG blah blah micro garbage pneumatic blah.


Lol... made me chuckle there! Looking back over most of my projects, one would tend to think I have the same opinion... There is a curve of Bore size vs. cost of manufacturing for each acceleration method that drives most peoples choices though.
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Unread postAuthor: SpudBlaster15 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:48 pm

Plenty of good responses in this thread, but several people seem to have misinterpreted the point of the original post. This is not a personal vendetta to force members to share my interests. For the better of the site, I simply want to see the balance of pneumatics vs combustions/hybrids restored to a reasonable distribution. I'm not asking for apartment dwellers to start building multi-kJ hybrids. Heck, I'm not asking anyone to start building multi-kJ hybrids. As mark.f stated, we only need a dozen or so additional members working on combustion/hybrid designs to offset the excessive amount of effort being expended on pneumatic launchers. Simple as that.

evanmcorleytv wrote:When I say small bore, I think of LESS than a half inch.


This seems like a specific criteria you invented on the spot in an attempt to disqualify my response. "Small bore" is an ambiguous term open to personal interpretation, and in my personal opinion, the cutoff point is right around the internal diameter of 3/4" type L copper pipe, which is approximately 0.8".

which means that you've built ONE.


Alright, assuming we use your definition, I have indeed posted one small bore pneumatic on Spudfiles. This of course doesn't include the several BBMGs and single shot airsoft cannons which I built for airsoft matches, but deemed unworthy of posting on the forum. Trust me, I've been there and done that; pneumatic launchers with a bore under 0.5" are rarely entertaining for more than a few shots.

Also, small bore pneumatics are fun!! They are usually pretty easy to build, and supply a LOT of mostly harmless fun.


Pffft, 'harmless fun' is an oxymoron. :P

D_Hall wrote:lWhich leaves us with "I don't have [...] the interest".


No, it leaves me with "I don't have the interest to take time out of work, school, studying, and other hobbies to build, maintain and advertise a forum which would require almost full time dedication to meet my standards".

I should note that I am currently an administrator of an energetics message board. It was an attempt at creating something of a replacement for RogueSci, but despite the moderate efforts put into the project thus far, we have only 4 members. It's not as easy as you think.

D_Hall wrote:lNow let me get this straight... The members of this forum clearly don't have the interest in hybrids that you wish they did and you're taking them to task for not jumping on the bandwagon, but you're gonna use lack of interest as an excuse for why you're not doing something to further your agenda?


As I explained before, my interest lies in improving this community, not furthering my own agenda. Sure, it would be nice to have an active forum where the discussion of high energy hybrids and "magic" propulsion systems could take place, but it's not what I'm getting at here.

jrrdw wrote:Very well said!


We all understand that you lack sufficient intelligence to contribute anything constructive to the discussion, but I think most of the members would appreciate it if you stopped cluttering up the thread with your attempts to use others' words to exact your personal vendetta against me.
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Unread postAuthor: POLAND_SPUD » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:01 pm

I don't have the interest to take time out of work, school, studying, and other hobbies to build, maintain and advertise a forum which would require almost full time dedication to meet my standards
most people don't have the interest to take time out of work, school, studying, and other hobbies to build hybrids that would meet their standards
:roll:


Ohh and as I said earlier you can't force someone to do something... but you can inspire them...

I simply want to see the balance of pneumatics vs combustions/hybrids restored to a reasonable distribution
hmm ok I am going to spend extra time to explain this one more time - if you want people to build hybrids first you have to impress them with a hybrid that THEY would like to have

if you feel they are not impressed by yours (and you think they should but they are pneumbs and they are no match for you :-D ), then you have two options:
A)start pointless threads like this one
B)do as I suggested and hope you will be able to impress enough ppl


that's what I am trying to tell you but it seems that you can't understand this
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Unread postAuthor: frigaardj » Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:45 am

It seems that the reason so few people build hybrids is because the typical gains in power are often outweighed by a) the greater financial costs, b) the greater hassle in reloading, and c) the more time and planning involved.

Whilst hybrids are definitely fun, it seems a daunting area for many as most hybrids that are built on this site are designed for extreme performance and use parts and techniques that aren't widely accessible.

The way to get more people on the hybrid bandwagon is, as POLAND_SPUD just said, to build approachable designs that can be built off the shelf and that will inspire people.
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Unread postAuthor: Crna Legija » Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:14 am

POLAND_SPUD wrote:pressed by yours (and you think they should but they are pneumbs and they are no match for you :-D ), then you have two options:
A)start pointless threads like this one
B)do as I suggested and hope you will be able to impress enough ppl


or you can mention them in every post possible.

Well I can say I have gotten over pneumatics, just not having fun with them.
I can't make massive hybrids like SB15 i don't have the room to shoot on so it would go unused, so i will just scaled down to something i can use.

First thing I hope to make a small bore realistic looking hybrid too show others its not hard or expensive.
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:34 am

frigaardj wrote:It seems that the reason so few people build hybrids is because the typical gains in power are often outweighed by a) the greater financial costs[1], b) the greater hassle in reloading, and c) the more time and planning involved.

Whilst hybrids are definitely fun, it seems a daunting area for many as most hybrids that are built on this site are designed for extreme performance and use parts and techniques that aren't widely accessible[2].

The way to get more people on the hybrid bandwagon is, as POLAND_SPUD just said, to build approachable designs that can be built off the shelf and that will inspire people.

I don't mean to offend but this is a good example of hybrid misinformation that is commonly found on this forum.

[1] - That's generally not true. There's no reason why a 3/4" burst disk hybrid would cost much more than a pneumatic version. The only cost difference really is a one-off purchase of a propane/MAPP cylinder which will last years (my very first one is still going strong after 4 years or so).

A form of ignition generally can be had for free, if not a few dollars (piezo ignition especially). The meter can be built from spare parts (most of us having a lot of these lying around) or for a few dollars with brass fittings. Apart from that, both a pneumatic and hybrid would use the same air source, pressure gauge, chamber and barrel (a lot of small bore pneumatics also use copper barrels, copper is cheap in the U.S. anyway).

If there is a cost difference, we're talking about $20. The increase in performance gained from building a hybrid over a pneumatic is significantly greater than extra $20 spent.

[2] - To build my large bore (in relative terms) piston valved hybrid I didn't use any material or techniques or tools that aren't widely accessible. I used normal galv. iron fittings from hardware stores, the s/s barrel was bought from someone selling it as handrail material, the stun gun ignition (or any number of different ignition systems) can be built by a novice in electronics, the piston is made with o-rings and metal washers, bolts and nuts bought from a hardware store and the tools required to make such a cannon would be a hacksaw, spanner and plumbing wrench.


I think some work could be done on Hybrid Fueling 101 to make it easier to follow (I had trouble following it when I first started out) but then again if we make it any easier, anyone who can make a pneumatic could make a hybrid. If you went with a manometric fuelling system, it would be even easier to make as the fuel pressure numbers are fixed for each mix (no volume measuring or calculations).
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Unread postAuthor: Brian the brain » Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:57 am

It sounds like SB15 needs a challenge.

I felt just as bored with the site a couple of months ago.
That's why I challenged myself.

I suggest you join in on the Masterclass Challenge and show us what would be up to your standards.

That would challenge you personally to outdo yourself and it would be a nice platform to get lots of views.
I personally challenge you to wipe my creation off the forum!


( in a friendly competition)
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Oh my friggin god stop being so awesome, that thing is pure kick ass. Most innovative and creative pneumatic that the files have ever come by!

Can't ask for a better compliment!!
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Unread postAuthor: jackssmirkingrevenge » Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:58 am

I used to shun hybrids, but having experienced the power difference, I can't imagine building a pneumatic now for the sake of high power.

Whilst hybrids are definitely fun, it seems a daunting area for many as most hybrids that are built on this site are designed for extreme performance and use parts and techniques that aren't widely accessible.


A good number of members followed in the footsteps of my mini hybrid, you really don't need that much in terms of resources to build one, and syringe fuelling is about as easy as it gets.

This one comes to mind, you can't say it uses "parts and techniques that aren't widely accessible".

To those who say that they can't build a hybrid because of legal reasons and/or noise issues; I have built a number of hybrids and fired them dozens of times in a country that thinks they fall under firearms with laws that can put me in prison in a affluent suburb surrounded by 9 houses within a 15m distance from my property.


I think that it is exactly this sort of thing which gets people into trouble, you can say that you've been lucky. In general I would highly recommend keeping as low a profile as possible, and in that regard, small bores have their benefits - I don't get the "hate" for mini launchers, in some people's cases they can either go small scale or build nothing at all, so it's not an area where development should be discouraged.
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:15 am

I think that it is exactly this sort of thing which gets people into trouble, you can say that you've been lucky
Yeah, I didn't mean to say "what's everyone so afraid of? I didn't get caught so neither will you" but that sensible spudding can allow one to do illegal things without too much risk. My neighbours are kind enough to either not mind the noise or to tell me to f*ck off before they call the cops. We've seen that one member was unlucky enough to have a neighbour who skipped the pleasantry's and immediately called the cops.

Out of sight, out of mind. Go to a place where the bang is not an issue. Unless you have a location where the houses a few km away, its' likely the acoustic environment will allow the report to travel to a number of peoples houses, but they will probably not think much of it (if you keep the number of shots to a handful). I hear random explosions all the time from my house, either a car has backfired or some 13 year olds are playing with spare fireworks. No one is going to call the police if they hear a boom in the distance, it too easily could be a car backfiring.

The people who will report you will probably live within 100m. If you can't find a big enough area, limit the report by having a long barrel, waiting for the wind to pick up or, for dry fires, stuff a t-shirt down the barrel (works for small bore barrels).
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Unread postAuthor: Crna Legija » Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:38 am

I too have been lucky 3 out off 4 of my neighbours are relatives and the other ones just don't mind the occasional bang but i only have 20m x 4m back yard to shoot in and lots of big windows around. So i keep it small and safe.
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Unread postAuthor: POLAND_SPUD » Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:48 am

or you can mention them in every post possible

Touché :D

but seriously I don't think that helped much in case of 3 way valves or fridge compressors

fridge compressors became popular when a few people built their own and proved that they do work as advertised... it was the same with 3 way valves
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Unread postAuthor: frigaardj » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:18 am

MrCrowley wrote:There's no reason why a 3/4" burst disk hybrid would cost much more than a pneumatic version.

Let me make my stance clear: a lot of users on this forum are teens and students. Often they have parents who are sceptical of what they do and are not keen on them spending lots of money. Stepping from a pneumatic to a hybrid involves several components that can be a hassle and a cost to get: meters (syringe metering is cheap although this topic concerns higher performance hybrids), ignition (an ignition system usually costs at least 10-15$ in my experience), and more components and pieces (unions, more piping).

If there is a cost difference, we're talking about $20. The increase in performance gained from building a hybrid over a pneumatic is significantly greater than extra $20 spent.


I would argue that for the average user (not seeking extreme performance, rather seeking fun) the cost would outweigh the gains (I think the costs are more than just $20).

[2] - To build my large bore (in relative terms) piston valved hybrid I didn't use any material or techniques or tools that aren't widely accessible. I used normal galv. iron fittings from hardware stores, the s/s barrel was bought from someone selling it as handrail material, the stun gun ignition (or any number of different ignition systems) can be built by a novice in electronics, the piston is made with o-rings and metal washers, bolts and nuts bought from a hardware store and the tools required to make such a cannon would be a hacksaw, spanner and plumbing wrench.


This is a fair point, however again considering the point of view of our younger average user these techniques are not well documented, yet glueing together PVC is and people tend to do what is easy (myself included somewhat).

Let me make clear I have no objection to hybrids and I plan to build one, I also agree with many of your points, however I wanted to argue for the user base without much cash.
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Unread postAuthor: Crna Legija » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:32 am

I built a test hybrid found all the parts around the house except for the camera flash but i got that for free just asked the lady at the canon store if they had any disposable cameras in the bin.

If I had bought the parts I would guess $30 that's the price in Australia everything is overpriced here.
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Unread postAuthor: Radiance » Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:23 am

I built a combustion cannon back in high school. It was a lot of fun.
Just finished up college, and it's been over 4 years since I've been to this site, I don't even remember what name I used to post with back then...

Anyways, I'm currently working on a very small bore combustion cannon just for kicks, to sort of get back into it. I'm using as an excuse to practice some SolidWorks 3d design. I think it might be interesting to see how well I can work if I build up a personal library of 3d models of various pipe fittings, and then use it to sort of rapidly prototype and think my way through designs before building.

I have little to no interest in small bore pneumatic cannons, personally.
Not sure how much time I'll have for posting on this site nowadays, but it would be a real shame to see a place like what this site used to be slip into mediocrity.
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Unread postAuthor: MrCrowley » Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:47 am

frigaardj wrote:Let me make my stance clear: a lot of users on this forum are teens and students. Often they have parents who are sceptical of what they do and are not keen on them spending lots of money. Stepping from a pneumatic to a hybrid involves several components that can be a hassle and a cost to get: meters (syringe metering is cheap although this topic concerns higher performance hybrids), ignition (an ignition system usually costs at least 10-15$ in my experience), and more components and pieces (unions, more piping).

Meters don't cost money, they're pretty much a tee and a few nipples with filling attachments (quick connect), they have a pressure gauge but so do most pneumatics. Ignition can be cheap; whether you scavenged capacitors or cameras or electric BBQ igniters (I found my first one on an old BBQ that was thrown away by someone) . Unions are cheap and are also found on a pneumatic burst disk cannon (I compared pneumatics to cannons for the same cannon design: a 3/4" burst disk valve with the same chamber and barrels). The piping would cost the same as it is more or less the same for both designs. Want to use a different valve? It'd cost more than a union would.

frigaardj wrote:I would argue that for the average user (not seeking extreme performance, rather seeking fun) the cost would outweigh the gains (I think the costs are more than just $20).
It can actually be cheaper to build a hybrid over a pneumatic. Where you can build an elaborate 2" piston valved pneumatic from PVC to get 160m/s with a golf ball, a 3/4" union hybrid would get 260m/s and cost less (in NZ, anyway). The extra cost of a 3/4" union hybrid would not be much more than $20 when compared to an equivalent pneumatic.


frigaardj wrote:This is a fair point, however again considering the point of view of our younger average user these techniques are not well documented, yet glueing together PVC is and people tend to do what is easy (myself included somewhat).
Bolt and washer pistons are fairly common, there might even be a how-to on it. I know GunFreak has even made them for people. Apart from that, using a plumbing wrench and spanner would be pretty normal for any spudder.

frigaardj wrote:Let me make clear I have no objection to hybrids and I plan to build one, I also agree with many of your points, however I wanted to argue for the user base without much cash.
Fair enough. Just to put it other there; many of us 'senior' members started out here when 14 or 15 and now we're just as poor but busy with university too. If American teens think it's an expensive hobby, try New Zealand. PVC prices are as much as 1300% higher, copper is just as highly priced and galv. iron fittings are about 3-400% more. I managed it without a steady job or allowance.

I'm not saying everyone should be able to build expensive cannons, just that everyone who can afford a pneumatic can afford a hybrid. Even if your pneumatic is a pen bottle, people have made hybrids from similar items.

Edit: To make it clear, I'm not trying to force this down peoples throats. My intentions are to dispel hybrid myths.
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