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The Pneumatic Takeover

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The Pneumatic Takeover

Unread postAuthor: SpudBlaster15 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:13 pm

Serious question: Other than the obvious suspects such as MC, mark.f, DYI, MrC, JSR and a handful of others, is anyone around here still even somewhat interested in combustion/hybrid launchers?

Maybe I'm just getting too old for this 'new generation' of spudders, but I recall a time when the SF member base had a very strong interest in air/fuel propulsion technologies. Currently, it would be more appropriate to rename the site AirCannonFiles, as it has become almost completely dominated by small bore pneumatics.

Not that there's anything specifically wrong with small bore pneumatics, but when I log on to check the forum every couple days, 95 out of 100 new posts are always related to some BB gun that would have difficulty penetrating a sheet of paper with a tungsten carbide tipped osmium APFSDS round, or 10 different adaptations of the same low performance semi-auto valve concept. It's frustrating and disappointing to say the least. Other than what myself and the individuals I mentioned above contribute, zero development occurs in most other fields.

Some people may ask: What's the point of complaining about the state of this site? If you're that opposed to the way the forum has evolved, why not go elsewhere? My response: There is no elsewhere. This is the last spudding forum on the internet, and for the past several years it has been the only place where I can discuss one of my primary interests (High energy gaseous oxidizer/fuel powered projectile launchers) with people who actually understand and are interested in the concepts. I don't want to leave, and more importantly than that, I don't want to see the last haven for individuals like myself crumble into bland mediocrity. However, these days, a thread centered around a handheld piston hybrid with 3kJ+ muzzle energies and a ROF higher than most single shot pneumatics requires multiple instances of bumping to accumulate half the number of total replies that a realistic looking air rifle with a cool wooden stock would see in a day. I almost don't bother anymore. Almost, because the hybrid discussion/showcase sections are still a marginal step above nothing.

I know it's asking a lot out of a majority of the members here, but can we at least try to shift the community's focus back in a more balanced direction? I'm not asking anyone to abandon pneumatics entirely, but there is so much unused potential in existing, easily accessible alternatives that it seems almost shameful to continue with this universal fixation on compressed air.

/SB15's yearly rant for 2012.
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Unread postAuthor: Gun Freak » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:39 pm

Quite a bold statement.

I'm gonna keep my comment short and say that I think most people here do this as a small side hobby unlike yourself (myself also) who have a lot of interest in this stuff (albeit our interests are in opposite sub-fields :D ). What you're expecting is for more people to put more money into the hobby, but I don't think people are willing to do that.
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Unread postAuthor: Hawkeye » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:25 pm

It's probably the air is free factor for pneumatics. The world we live in today probably scares people away from messing with anything explosive especially when the legality of it is dubious in many locations.
Driving around with an empty propane cylinder can carry something like a half million fine and years in jail in some locales.
Really, Who needs that?
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Unread postAuthor: POLAND_SPUD » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:50 pm

Currently, it would be more appropriate to rename the site AirCannonFiles, as it has become almost completely dominated by small bore pneumatics.

a thread centered around a handheld piston hybrid with 3kJ+ muzzle energies and a ROF higher than most single shot pneumatics requires multiple instances of bumping to accumulate half the number of total replies that a realistic looking air rifle with a cool wooden stock would see in a day.

well then design and build a realistic looking hybrid with a cool wooden stock... :D :D :D

ohh and make sure it isn't a PITA to fuel and reload and has high rof
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Unread postAuthor: Lockednloaded » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:01 pm

I think there just needs to be more advancement in the hybrid world. No, I'm not talking more powerful, complicated guns, I'm talking about simplicity and ROF that can be achieved with standard hardware store parts. Until then, people who simply seek to launch sh*t real far will take the simplest route from A to B, a pneumatic launcher.

Just my humble opinion having dealt with both launchers.
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Unread postAuthor: Gun Freak » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:03 pm

I can see this thread rapidly turning into a final treaty on the superiority of pneumatics :D
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Unread postAuthor: Fnord » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:57 pm

If I could pick just one possible path to follow... That might shift interest back toward the combustion side of this site it would be this:

We need to start reverse-engineering the tippman C3.

When scaled up to the size of a 'typical' launcher, the amount of rapid destructive potential in this gun is something the auto pneumatics and even multi-KJ hybrids can't touch. You might not punch through steel with it, but a volley of slugs obliterating everything down range that isn't bullet proof is not going to be ignored.

I don't think you're going to make it from off-the-shelf stuff, so the potential for replication of the design is limited to those with modest machining abilities. (This can also be viewed as a good thing!)
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Unread postAuthor: USGF » Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:26 pm

SB15,

The site simply reflects the sad reality of the world. A lot of kids are really straying from the straight and narrow to buy PVC and glue up a pneumatic. To expect them to step up to combustion is really a stretch. Now to move past that and go Hybrid is like organizing a moon shot as far as most young ones are concerned.

First is the inability to use and handle real tools whether hand or machine. Next is the cost of such an endeavor. They are told there is too much liability to the school to allow shop classes. They are told manufacturing and working with your hands is a dirty business. I am happy to see many here bucking the trend by using and building talent with this hobby.

Course people like us aim to make a few dollars here too. Mike will tell you exactly which way the market is heading, it is not for the large combustion units though he sells quite a few. The parts business is what is paying the bills. The key word is "economical" as I hate to use the term "cheap".

We have been thinking about marketing some pneumatic parts for a while. There is no clear cut single part we can make that would make a splash. The pneumatic trigger has been on and off the drawing board several times. But how to make a universal pneumatic trigger that works for several applications remains elusive. Recall it needs to meet the "economical" criteria.

Now to market something for the hybrid people is really tough as that market is dominated by experimental devices.

USG and most of our competition are not offering anything for hybrids. This means the Hybrid guys have to design from the ground up. Nothing simple to assemble with PVC glue here. A really daunting obstacle even for better heeled enthusiasts.

USGF
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Unread postAuthor: jrrdw » Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:50 pm

@Spudblaster15, if you want more and improved hybird information around here ad it. For your own sake, stop your complaining.
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Re: The Pneumatic Takeover

Unread postAuthor: D_Hall » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:06 pm

SpudBlaster15 wrote:Some people may ask: What's the point of complaining about the state of this site? If you're that opposed to the way the forum has evolved, why not go elsewhere? My response: There is no elsewhere.


So start your own. Not so long ago I had a similar observation about forums related to a different topic. I decided that rather than [female doggy] and whine about it, I would *DO SOMETHING* about it. I started my own forum. For a small scale forum (as any new forum will be at first), it can be done for about $5/month.

So... If you're opposed to the way the forum has evolved, why not go somewhere else? "There is no elsewhere?" Bah, that's just an excuse. The internet is dynamic. You can MAKE that elsewhere else if you so desire.
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Unread postAuthor: Gippeto » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:29 pm

Not everyone likes the same thing and there's no controlling that...it's a fact of life you should learn to accept.

Suck it up buttercup. :roll:
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Unread postAuthor: evanmcorleytv » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:39 pm

Only people who haven't built a small bore pneumatic rant about them..
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Unread postAuthor: Lockednloaded » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:15 am

evanmcorleytv wrote:Only people who haven't built a small bore pneumatic rant about them..


I'm pretty sure SB15 has built a number of small bore copper guns, just looking through the showcase you'll see in the bajillion years he's been here he's probably built every type of pneumatic gun there is :lol:
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Unread postAuthor: daniel0663 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:27 am

Only people who haven't built a small bore pneumatic rant about them..


How brave of you to state such accusation. :lol:
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Unread postAuthor: SpudBlaster15 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:30 am

Gun Freak wrote:What you're expecting is for more people to put more money into the hobby, but I don't think people are willing to do that.


Not necessarily... Sure, it would be nice to see members invest more into their projects, but it doesn't have to be expensive. There was a member here a while back named bigbob12345 who's entire spudding budget was an $8/week allowance from his parents. Despite this financial restriction, he still managed to build some pretty reasonable launchers.

Hawkeye wrote:It's probably the air is free factor for pneumatics. The world we live in today probably scares people away from messing with anything explosive especially when the legality of it is dubious in many locations.


Certainly a factor.

Lockednloaded wrote:I think there just needs to be more advancement in the hybrid world. No, I'm not talking more powerful, complicated guns, I'm talking about simplicity and ROF that can be achieved with standard hardware store parts.


Nah, people just need to stop being lazy and put some reasonable effort into designing and building their launchers. The technology required to achieve everything you mentioned already exists, but nobody seems to care enough to implement it.

Fnord wrote:We need to start reverse-engineering the tippman C3.


An excellent idea. MC has been working on this, but the community as a whole could benefit from some collective thinking.

USGF wrote:The site simply reflects the sad reality of the world. A lot of kids are really straying from the straight and narrow to buy PVC and glue up a pneumatic. To expect them to step up to combustion is really a stretch. Now to move past that and go Hybrid is like organizing a moon shot as far as most young ones are concerned.


Well said.

jrrdw wrote:@Spudblaster15, if you want more and improved hybird information around here ad it.


Add it? You mean what I've been doing since mid 2007 or so? A forum isn't a one person show.

D_Hall wrote:So start your own.


With a fringe hobby like this, it isn't exactly easy to start from scratch. I don't have the time nor the interest to run a forum that is very likely to never get off the ground.

Gippeto wrote:Not everyone likes the same thing


As of now, it sure seems like everyone likes pneumatics. :wink:

evanmcorleytv wrote:Only people who haven't built a small bore pneumatic rant about them..


http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/hv-pbl- ... 12527.html
http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/copper- ... 11249.html
http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/simple- ... 10085.html
http://www.spudfiles.com/forums/545-cal ... 10442.html

Need I go on?
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