Austro-Hungarian valveless pneumatic mortars of World War I
- jackssmirkingrevenge
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I had touched on the subject of these devices here, and posted some details of French launchers of the same era here.
The Austro-Hungarian empire was heavily involved with such mortars, they are detailed on this fine (German language) page.
Having had the opportunity to look at surviving examples of the 12 cm Luftminenwerfer M.16 and 20 cm Luftminenwerfer System Bartlmus preserved at the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum close up, I thought I would share some photos. Not my best effort, flash photography was not allowed.
Unfortunately I was unable to get any details of the clutch, but the function can be easily imagined as a quick-release mechanism which releases the projectile when pulled.
One thing I don't understand is how the projectiles are stabilised. Having seen the studs on the projectiles, my initial idea was that they engaged rifling in the barrel in a manner similar to the La Hitte system, but in actual fact the barrels are smoothbores, and the studs do not project beyond the major diameter of the projectiles.
Looking at a cross section, the CG and CP are about central, so it doesn't appear that it would be drag stabilised.
The most plausible answer to me is that the place where the projectile sits actually contains a short rifled section. Even thought it's only over half the length of the projectile, this could provide enough spin to stabilise the relatively short projectile in flight. The 20cm model had its breech open but a projectile was in place and I was unable to confirm this. Any other theories welcome
One other interesting thing is that the 12cm model has a spring loaded shutter at the muzzle. The springs look fairly weak so I imagine this was mostly to keep debris out when not in use, but it could also have had a limited suppressing effect.
I digress, herewith the pictures:
The Austro-Hungarian empire was heavily involved with such mortars, they are detailed on this fine (German language) page.
Having had the opportunity to look at surviving examples of the 12 cm Luftminenwerfer M.16 and 20 cm Luftminenwerfer System Bartlmus preserved at the Heeresgeschichtliches Museum close up, I thought I would share some photos. Not my best effort, flash photography was not allowed.
Unfortunately I was unable to get any details of the clutch, but the function can be easily imagined as a quick-release mechanism which releases the projectile when pulled.
One thing I don't understand is how the projectiles are stabilised. Having seen the studs on the projectiles, my initial idea was that they engaged rifling in the barrel in a manner similar to the La Hitte system, but in actual fact the barrels are smoothbores, and the studs do not project beyond the major diameter of the projectiles.
Looking at a cross section, the CG and CP are about central, so it doesn't appear that it would be drag stabilised.
The most plausible answer to me is that the place where the projectile sits actually contains a short rifled section. Even thought it's only over half the length of the projectile, this could provide enough spin to stabilise the relatively short projectile in flight. The 20cm model had its breech open but a projectile was in place and I was unable to confirm this. Any other theories welcome
One other interesting thing is that the 12cm model has a spring loaded shutter at the muzzle. The springs look fairly weak so I imagine this was mostly to keep debris out when not in use, but it could also have had a limited suppressing effect.
I digress, herewith the pictures:
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hectmarr wrote:You have to make many weapons, because this field is long and short life
- wyz2285
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Wow, didn´t knew that pneumatics was popular in old time wars
Any hybrid out there?
Question: what´s the pressure they used? pretty high I guess.
How does the firing mechanism work?
Also the muzzle shutter is open before shot right? Or does the air/projectile force it to open when fired?(witch reminds me, did your shut off suppressor ever worked?)
Any hybrid out there?
Question: what´s the pressure they used? pretty high I guess.
How does the firing mechanism work?
Also the muzzle shutter is open before shot right? Or does the air/projectile force it to open when fired?(witch reminds me, did your shut off suppressor ever worked?)
CpTn_lAw wrote: "yay, me wanna make big multishot pnoob with 1000 psi foot pump compressor using diamond as main material. Do you think wet bread make good sealant? "
It would be a hinged claw that held the flared end of the pin then opened when the firing knob was pulled back.
At a guess, imagine a clothes peg.
The jaws will not open if you block the opening levers from closing.
Remove the block and the jaws will open.
The screw part at the rear I imagine would be to loosen and tighten the grasp on the pin of the projectile. Possibly requires resetting after each shot.
As for the studs...
Could be we are not seeing the projectile as they were and the studs were to hold a material which would have helped sealing.
Alternatively the seal may have been generated by the force of the "clutch" pulling the projectile onto a sealing material within the mortar.
If it's to engage a rifled section its an incredibly short one since the studs don't seem to protrude past the diameter of the shell.
At a guess, imagine a clothes peg.
The jaws will not open if you block the opening levers from closing.
Remove the block and the jaws will open.
The screw part at the rear I imagine would be to loosen and tighten the grasp on the pin of the projectile. Possibly requires resetting after each shot.
As for the studs...
Could be we are not seeing the projectile as they were and the studs were to hold a material which would have helped sealing.
Alternatively the seal may have been generated by the force of the "clutch" pulling the projectile onto a sealing material within the mortar.
If it's to engage a rifled section its an incredibly short one since the studs don't seem to protrude past the diameter of the shell.
Last edited by Hotwired on Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- jackssmirkingrevenge
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Around 55 bar, not badwyz2285 wrote:Question: what´s the pressure they used? pretty high I guess.
see the basic attached diagram, the clutch holds the pin at the base of the projectile, at the moment of firing the clutch releases the pin and bang!How does the firing mechanism work?
They also had a smaller mortar where the pin actually sheared when a specific pressure was reached.
It seems the force of the shot opened it.Also the muzzle shutter is open before shot right? Or does the air/projectile force it to open when fired?
Not that well at high pressures, I think the concept is sound but I'm not willing to put in the work to perfect it.(witch reminds me, did your shut off suppressor ever worked?)
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hectmarr wrote:You have to make many weapons, because this field is long and short life
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So the Germans got a leak-free high pressure valveless(metal on metal seal) 100 years before you didsee the basic attached diagram, the clutch holds the pin at the base of the projectile, at the moment of firing the clutch releases the pin and bang!
Wow 55bar was low, what was the range of these thing? I thought they were using more than 200 bar at least
CpTn_lAw wrote: "yay, me wanna make big multishot pnoob with 1000 psi foot pump compressor using diamond as main material. Do you think wet bread make good sealant? "
- jackssmirkingrevenge
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hehe not sure it was a metal on metal seal, and it seems that sealing problems were one of the issues of this type of weapon.wyz2285 wrote:So the Germans got a leak-free high pressure valveless(metal on metal seal) 100 years before you did
1150 metres for the 20cm one, not bad eh.Wow 55bar was low, what was the range of these thing? I thought they were using more than 200 bar at least
hectmarr wrote:You have to make many weapons, because this field is long and short life
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Interesting. I may have to take notes now... How did the clutch work? Was it pretty much a jaw that was released when you wanted to fire?
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what?1150 metres for the 20cm one, not bad eh.
Wow pneumatics have future That big fat metal projectile, with a relatively short barrel goes 1km...
CpTn_lAw wrote: "yay, me wanna make big multishot pnoob with 1000 psi foot pump compressor using diamond as main material. Do you think wet bread make good sealant? "
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I imagine so, have a look at other quick release mechanisms:warhead052 wrote:Interesting. I may have to take notes now... How did the clutch work? Was it pretty much a jaw that was released when you wanted to fire?
Essentially my ballistic knives use exactly the same principle - a projectile held in the barrel by a mechanical catch, and is released to fire.
Imagine if they used that 55 bar for a 56x hybrid, it would have gone much, much furtherWow pneumatics have future That big fat metal projectile, with a relatively short barrel goes 1km...
hectmarr wrote:You have to make many weapons, because this field is long and short life
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Or just use a common cannon for a hybrid that size they need pressured fuel as well, also a small leak would set the mix off.
CpTn_lAw wrote: "yay, me wanna make big multishot pnoob with 1000 psi foot pump compressor using diamond as main material. Do you think wet bread make good sealant? "
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- jackssmirkingrevenge
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Naturally, given the inconvenience... which is why these things have long since disappeared from the battlefield.wyz2285 wrote:Or just use a common cannon for a hybrid that size they need pressured fuel as well, also a small leak would set the mix off.
I'm fascinated most though by what I imagine to be the rifling system. Only having to rifle a tiny part of the breech would be infinitely easier than having to rifle an entire barrel...
hectmarr wrote:You have to make many weapons, because this field is long and short life
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But fire arms were very available already in the early 20th century...
Well some FX airguns are only rifled in the end of the barrel, giving the pellet a initial space to accelerate, then in the end, give it the spin.~
[youtube][/youtube]
Well some FX airguns are only rifled in the end of the barrel, giving the pellet a initial space to accelerate, then in the end, give it the spin.~
[youtube][/youtube]
CpTn_lAw wrote: "yay, me wanna make big multishot pnoob with 1000 psi foot pump compressor using diamond as main material. Do you think wet bread make good sealant? "
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Thanks for sharing very fascinating indeed!
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lol isn't it ironic ? you think you invented something and then you find out that the thing had been created years agoSo the Germans got a leak-free high pressure valveless(metal on metal seal) 100 years before you did
thx for sharing
Hmm that's clever12cm breech connection detail
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