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Re: "In the world of spuds today"

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:58 am
by Moonbogg
JSR let me know if you want me to make you some drawings. It would be fun to help you with one of your projects. Not that you need it or anything, but it would still be fun. The main benefit is you can see the assembly before machining it to make sure nothing interferes and everything fits together etc.

Re: "In the world of spuds today"

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:22 am
by mrfoo
Labtecpower wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:21 am
The one I linked to has the benefit of the vise screw claming downwards, preventing the jaw from tilting when it is tightened. It's rather small though, 4"or 6" would be better.
I do all my milling on the lathe, which means it's all a bit restricted in terms of space, I clamp onto a plate on the milling slide. Most of the time I use finger clamps, but if I need full, unfettered access to the surface of the piece I have some low-profile side clamps, which are effectively one side of a milling vice. Here's some on a real big-boy milling machine :

Image
Labtecpower wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:21 am
do you own a dial indicator? You'll really need one …
Amen to that. I've found that the chinese brand "shahe" (link to their aliexpress store) are extremely good, on a par with the Mitutoyo gear we have at work, and at a fraction of the cost. Possibly not up to my Roch stuff, but I'm partial to Roch, and I paid a lot of money for it so it must be good. Seriously, though, Shahe instruments, particularly the "analogue" ones, are great - proof that the Chinese can and do make quality gear, but you are paying a bit more than for the super-cheap craptacular shite.

A DTI (finger / lever indicator) is more useful than a plunge indicator in most cases, but you really need both. And some micrometers. and …

Re: "In the world of spuds today"

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:42 am
by Gippeto
@Lab, Not sure which vise you're referring to. I've not bothered to actually measure, but have not had any problems. The new one does lift enough to loosen the parallel despite adjustment. Snugging in stages and some love taps with a dead blow is standard practice to counter this. ;) I do have a 2" tool makers vise, and am familiar with how they clamp...I would LOVE to have a 4". Been wanting to make a two piece vise similar to what Mr Foo posted...it never ends lol. This Old Tony on youtube made a nice one...
A DTI (finger / lever indicator) is more useful than a plunge indicator in most cases, but you really need both. And some micrometers. and …
That list grows pretty fast the more you think about it doesn't it lol.

Re: "In the world of spuds today"

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:07 pm
by Labtecpower
That list grows pretty fast the more you think about it doesn't it lol.
Maybe we need to wait for JSR to test the precision of his machines before we start talking him into throwing money at trinkets he might need in the future :P

Now whe're talking nice clamping tools, at the job we've collected a nice range of Erowa clamping systems. Now I can put stuff from my CNC mill directly into the lathe, measure it on a mitutoyo CMM, put it back on the mill and be sure it's in the exact same spot as it was before. Definitely a game changer when making complicated parts.

Re: "In the world of spuds today"

Posted: Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:06 pm
by jackssmirkingrevenge
It took some tools to bring you out of the ... metalwork? :D
Labtecpower wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:36 pm
This one is slightly more expensive, but looks way more precise to me. It's very much like the vices I use in the workshop. Also has some nice triangular cutouts in the jaws for clamping round parts.
Fair point, that's the one I ended up going for. It's the same style I have on the Sherline.
Moonbogg wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:58 am
JSR let me know if you want me to make you some drawings. It would be fun to help you with one of your projects. Not that you need it or anything, but it would still be fun.
Thanks for the offer, I'll keep it in mind ;)
Labtecpower wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:21 am
Also, do you own a dial indicator? You'll really need one to properly align the vise with the machine X-axis, and to check the flatness of the bed relative to the X and Y slides.
Actually I don't. My milling experiences have mostly been "that looks about right" escapades guided by 1-2-3 blocks, perhaps it's time to move to the next level!
mrfoo wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:22 am
the chinese brand "shahe"
Huh, something like that?

Do I need one of these to use it?
Labtecpower wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:07 pm
Maybe we need to wait for JSR to test the precision of his machines before we start talking him into throwing money at trinkets he might need in the future :P
I threw about a thousand dollars at eBay this morning, now we wait...

Image

A word about lubrication, should I do the JSR thing and go with 30W motor oil like this dude?


Re: "In the world of spuds today"

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:31 pm
by mrfoo
Yep, that looks about right as far as lever indicators go. You'll probably want a plunge indicator as well, though. And a couple of mag bases. Then you can make up some indicator holders for the lathe toolpost, and maybe one to clamp to the ways.

For tramming the mill, all you really need is a piece of bar with a clamping hole for a plunge indicator, and some way of holding it in the spindle. No need to go spending loads of money, making crap like that is what you have machine tools for.

As far as oiling goes, you could spend loads of money on expensive way oil, even more expensive bearing oil, and so on. Or you could use engine oil. It might not be quite as good, but even fish oil is better than no oil. Apart from the stench. On my Schaublin, which has a bearing headstock, I use motor oil. The ARE gets Dexron II, which is apparently nicer to plain bearings than "modern" motor oil, something to do with the additives. Not sure I really buy that, though, my motor has plain shell bearings and it does pretty well on el cheapo crapoil.

What chinese stuff usually needs, though, is a teardown and thorough clean to remove all the grinding dust the tongs leave in there, which combines with the oil to make grinding paste. Might as well deburr all those knife-edges they leave all over the place at the same time, too.

Re: "In the world of spuds today"

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:03 pm
by Labtecpower
Or you could use engine oil. It might not be quite as good, but even fish oil is better than no oil. Apart from the stench. On my Schaublin, which has a bearing headstock, I use motor oil. The ARE gets Dexron II, which is apparently nicer to plain bearings than "modern" motor oil, something to do with the additives. Not sure I really buy that, though, my motor has plain shell bearings and it does pretty well on el cheapo crapoil.
Older oils (GL4 as opposed to GL5) tend to be better for brass and bronze parts, the additives in hypoid oils tend to eat them away somehow. Some simple 75w90 GL4 gear oil however is more than adequate for keeping the straight cut gears in your machine's gearbox alive, and lubricating the ways.
For more expensive equipment like the Schaublins, DMG's and Mahos at the job I tend to follow the lubrification specifications religiously, the ceramic spindle bearings in the DMU40 cost more than a schaublin lathe I believe.

Re: "In the world of spuds today"

Posted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:25 pm
by Moonbogg
JSR, if you reverse the jaws, how large of a diameter can you turn on your lathe without using a face plate? Of course, I'm thinking of cannon chamber size here, hehe.

Re: "In the world of spuds today"

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:42 am
by jackssmirkingrevenge
mrfoo wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:31 pm
What chinese stuff usually needs, though, is a teardown and thorough clean to remove all the grinding dust the tongs leave in there, which combines with the oil to make grinding paste. Might as well deburr all those knife-edges they leave all over the place at the same time, too.
Manual recommends the following:
ten days after the machine is put into normal use, it is necessary to change the oil in the headstock.
Do you think that's enough?
Moonbogg wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:25 pm
JSR, if you reverse the jaws, how large of a diameter can you turn on your lathe without using a face plate? Of course, I'm thinking of cannon chamber size here, hehe.
Swing over carriage is 5 inches, we should be good for some big bores ;)

Here's a question, forgive me if it's stupid:

Image

I don't seem to have any way to move the saddle longitudinally beyond wheel #3, and it's not a very fine movement, so what am I supposed to do for the latter? Used the compound slide? In the diagram there is a handwheel on the leadscrew but this seems to have been eliminated from the design.

Re: "In the world of spuds today"

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:48 am
by Gippeto
jackssmirkingrevenge wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:42 am

Manual recommends the following:
ten days after the machine is put into normal use, it is necessary to change the oil in the headstock.
Do you think that's enough?

Changed the oil in mine before I ran it in and after. Now change it yearly. Doesn't hold much oil so it's cheap insurance. Don't forget to change oil in the apron as well.
Moonbogg wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:25 pm
JSR, if you reverse the jaws, how large of a diameter can you turn on your lathe without using a face plate? Of course, I'm thinking of cannon chamber size here, hehe.
Swing over carriage is 5 inches, we should be good for some big bores ;)

Here's a question, forgive me if it's stupid:

Image

I don't seem to have any way to move the saddle longitudinally beyond wheel #3, and it's not a very fine movement, so what am I supposed to do for the latter? Used the compound slide? In the diagram there is a handwheel on the leadscrew but this seems to have been eliminated from the design.
Yes. Can make a mount for a dial indicator and clamp it to the bed way as well. Useful piece of kit, and many ways to mount/use them.

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1OK ... 66&bih=625

Could also mod a cheap digital vernier caliper into a small dro...

Re: "In the world of spuds today"

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:43 pm
by jackssmirkingrevenge
Gippeto wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:48 am
Changed the oil in mine before I ran it in and after. Now change it yearly. Doesn't hold much oil so it's cheap insurance. Don't forget to change oil in the apron as well.
Do you think that would be enough to remove any residual debris from manufacturing though?
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1OK ... 66&bih=625

Could also mod a cheap digital vernier caliper into a small dro...
Very interesting! Cheers.

Re: "In the world of spuds today"

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:03 pm
by Gippeto
If you find "chunks" or an excess amount, a fellow would be wise to tear it right down. Significant investment, and "An ounce of prevention..." as the saying goes. The oil coming out of mine was reasonably clean.

You might also consider adding a magnet to the drain plugs.

Re: "In the world of spuds today"

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:14 pm
by mrfoo
jackssmirkingrevenge wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:43 pm
Gippeto wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:48 am
Could also mod a cheap digital vernier caliper into a small dro...
Very interesting! Cheers.
One of my ongoing projects is to try modding the linear scale from an inkjet printer. "Stock", they are generally good for 600dpi, which is just over 0.04mm in scientific measures. My plan is to try and sin/cos the output rather than using quadrature direct, which means I should be able to get down to 5 micron level relatively easily. 5µ because it's twice the precision I work to.

Loads of other cack on the plate before I get to that, though.

Re: "In the world of spuds today"

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:22 pm
by jackssmirkingrevenge
Gippeto wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:03 pm
If you find "chunks" or an excess amount, a fellow would be wise to tear it right down. Significant investment, and "An ounce of prevention..." as the saying goes. The oil coming out of mine was reasonably clean.
It seems like it's relatively easy to remove the top of the headstock, worth taking a look :)
You might also consider adding a magnet to the drain plugs.
Already purchased :)
mrfoo wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:14 pm
One of my ongoing projects is to try modding the linear scale from an inkjet printer. "Stock", they are generally good for 600dpi, which is just over 0.04mm in scientific measures. My plan is to try and sin/cos the output rather than using quadrature direct, which means I should be able to get down to 5 micron level relatively easily. 5µ because it's twice the precision I work to.
Clever!

Re: "In the world of spuds today"

Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:26 pm
by mrfoo
The reason for doing that rather than modding digital calipers is because I'm going to need real time feed, the main reason is to feed an electronic leadscrew setup. Neither of my lathes have threading capability...

As for stripdowns, I've never had a piece of chinese gear that wasn't chock full of grinding dust. Just saying, like.