Nail-Dart-Sabot

jeepkahn · Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:13 am

THey may be restricted in the UK and other firearm unfriendly countries, due to the fact they use .22cal or .25cal "blanks" to drive them, some countries consider powder fastener tools as firearms...

The problem with a large wax sabot is gonna be added weight, if you are gonna use these in a larger than .5" barrel use a foam sabot(split lengthwise" and a short piece of wooden dowel or a shotgun shell as a wad... In .40" or 3/8" barrels an empty 9mm case makes a great wad and in a smallish bore the wad driving the nail forward combined with the drag of the collar actually will keep the point centered... When you are dealing with several thousand G's the head of the nail will remain flat against the wad as long as the nail isn't tilted past it's central COG...

boyntonstu · Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:03 am

jeepkahn wrote:THey may be restricted in the UK and other firearm unfriendly countries, due to the fact they use .22cal or .25cal "blanks" to drive them, some countries consider powder fastener tools as firearms...

The problem with a large wax sabot is gonna be added weight, if you are gonna use these in a larger than .5" barrel use a foam sabot(split lengthwise" and a short piece of wooden dowel or a shotgun shell as a wad... In .40" or 3/8" barrels an empty 9mm case makes a great wad and in a smallish bore the wad driving the nail forward combined with the drag of the collar actually will keep the point centered... When you are dealing with several thousand G's the head of the nail will remain flat against the wad as long as the nail isn't tilted past it's central COG...

For beeswax, density ranges from 0.958 to 0.970 grams per cubic centimeter (g/cc). Paraffin is about 0.93 g/cc. Carnuba wax runs about 0.97 g/cc.

(Or almost water density.)

1" cylinder of wax weighs 8 gm

Remove a core for the nail and to create a point and assume 5 gm.

Is this a lot?

How much weight would the lead sinker add?

dewey-1 · Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:49 am

Jeep & Stu;

Could both of you get the weight and balancing point measured from top of nail head. Preferably in grams and 3 decimal place inches.

This would provide me some useful information for my data base.
Stu already has the file.

jeepkahn · Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:37 am

I haven't gotten a scale yet, but the balance point is 1.251"+/-.002" from the head with the collar pushed all the way back to the head...

spudamine · Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:01 pm

THey may be restricted in the UK and other firearm unfriendly countries, due to the fact they use .22cal or .25cal "blanks" to drive them, some countries consider powder fastener tools as firearms...

actually the system seem's to be available and unliscensed, you can even buy the charges, got me thinking...
Back on topic, Jeep, are the ones in this link the right ones,:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ramset-1-1-2-driv ... 1c0d9fd057
I was wondering if maybe you had to put the collar on yourself and it wasn't shown in the picture. seems unlikely but the name given matches the right product on the ramset website.

jeepkahn · Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:07 pm

In the UK they may use different collars, search "remington fasteners" instead of ramset...

dewey-1 · Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:54 pm

Jeep;

Have you ever tried two collars on one pin?
That is assuming ypu have the "fins" inline.

My crude method of COP measurement has faild me.
I get the COG and COP is the same spot. I was hoping to see about .15 inch differential. With them equal it means marginal stability.
It probably is a borderline situation.

That is why I considered two collars to see if it was better or worse for stability.

I need to find a better method for determining COP.

spudamine · Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:20 pm

Ah ha, Remington got a few more hits. I've found some .22 calibre ones, would these be the same size as yours, If so I think I'll get me some

jeepkahn · Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:37 pm

I've not tried 2 collars, but I'm guessing your are forgeting that with a high velocity fin stabilized projectile any pitch or yaw will expose more fin surface area creating a much lower cross sectional density that will draw the tail back in line... and rough measuring and calculating says that the fins alone offer .020"^2 of surface area when flying straight, but at a 90degree angle to the flow the fins account for about .136"^2 of surface area greatly reducing the cross senctional density relative to flow...

@spudamine= make sure you're getting the nails and not the cartridges...

spudamine · Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:54 pm

Yeah, although the cartridges would be fun as well. Here's what I've made before:

they work a treat but epoxying the fins on is a pain, it would be nice to get rid of that step. Not exactly a penetrating dart, more of a stabalised slug,

POLAND_SPUD · Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:39 pm

With them equal it means marginal stability

it doesn't seem like such a big deal to add more weight to the front... maybe just dip it in some paint or something

boyntonstu · Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:15 pm

I rolled a half of a 3x5 index card around a plumb bob and used hot glue to hold it.

The shot was at 100 psi and it penetrate the 1" yellow pages.

Amazing penetration at only 100 psi pushing 70 grains.

i made it in less than 2 minutes.

Straight flight.

I combined the rolled paper and the molded milk bottle techniques.

BoyntonStu